LGBT characters in Swat Kats

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Re: LGBT characters in Swat Kats

Postby Tarnish » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:37 am

marklungo wrote:Well, fandom in general is full of people who like to speculate about the relationships of their favorite characters. In SWAT Kats' case, the show has several LGBT fans, some of whom have fantasized about T-Bone And Razor's already close relationship becoming something more. It's not surprising that they would want to see someone like themselves in one of their favorite series.


That's perfectly fine...but that's the stuff you keep to yourself and don't demand it to become cannon. I'm sure the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise has gay fans, but interestingly I don't remember them demanding a gay romantic relatinship between Sonic and Tails becoming cannon...Why would gays be so special that the creators have to cater to them, when the series hasn't been meant to be that way?

marklungo wrote:
Tarnish wrote:Being gay doesn't make anybody special,


Actually, it kind of does, since gays are a significant minority.


To that, I only have this picture to show:
412012155756Selection002.jpeg


marklungo wrote:
Tarnish wrote:it isn't a good thing by itself that has to be highlighted and showcased. Gays can still be awful people, so making a "positive LGBT representation" wouldn't suddenly make every gay person suddenly something to look up to and admire.


Every group, like every individual, has its share of good and bad. The problem is that LGBT people, like other minorities, have been either ignored or negatively stereotyped in the media until recently, which is why many fans want to balance the scales.


I wouldn't really call someone using their favorite cartoon as a tool and means to fight their moral and ethical battle with a 'fan', but that's just me. Is a childrens cartoon really the best medium and tool through to achieve all this?

marklungo wrote:
Tarnish wrote:Whereas showing positive character traits (heroism, bravery, self-sacrifice, honesty, persistence, loyalty, etc.), at least in my opinion, is far more important to highlight and showcase, because those are without question positive things that are worth admiring. Character traits, motivation, goals are what makes a character interesting and likeable...not sexual orientation.


In an ideal world, I wouldn't have much of a problem with this statement. But in the real world, LGBT people are killed and victimized just for being LGBT. And for far too long, gays (like other minorities) have been denied the chance to be heroes in fiction, so now both fans and pros want to make up for that.


Again, is your favorite cartoon the best tool to achieve all that? A show that first needs to prove itself it can be a profitable venture in todays age, after it has been off air and discontinued for 23 years? Why not aim at an already established cartoon series which proved itself already and already has a large audience and demand gay characters there? Would make a lot more sense to me.

And just to clarify: I don't have a problem with gays. I don't see them special in any way either tho, that would justify them needing or getting special treatment or attention. They have to prove themselves like any other person. And it might just be me, but your sexual orientation is something I think everybody should keep to themselfes..just because you can spread that information on the Internet to the world, doesn't mean you have to..

The problem I have is trying to inject (or lets just cleary say it: force) gay representation into a children's cartoon that was never about gays or sexual orientation in any way..had it had a gay character in it from the very beginning, fine, but trying to force one (or more) into it now..are gays really that insecure that they need acknowledgment coming from a children's show? Would the show be unwatchable without it?

If you want to represent gays or whatever, fine, do that in your own work or creations...but don't demand others to do it in their work and/or creations...
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Re: LGBT characters in Swat Kats

Postby MoDaD » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:04 am

Tarnish wrote:...but I just need to vent my thoughts on this...

And thank you for voicing your opinion. It may not be one that I share, but a number of people have privately expressed to me similar concerns.

I think Mark has already given a fair point-by-point explanation, so I won't muddy that up.

I think it's worth reiterating that this topic of discussion isn't a guarantor of anything - it's all speculative - potential aspects of cultural changes (and in some cases, new norms) that may or may not play into the re-launch of a show that's nearing a 25 year gap. There's bound to be new influences should SK Revolution be successful. But, who knows?

Tarnish wrote:Is a childrens cartoon really the best medium and tool through to achieve all this?


Some people have made that argument for a long time, but that medium has frequently been used to educate and sway opinion regarding social issues, as Mark has pointed out. An easy to remember one is Captain Planet (though I know some people cite it as agenda-driven propaganda) it can't be disputed that it was made and does exist and sets and continues precedent in children's entertainment. And, that's just one.

I made a more lengthy post earlier in the thread. I don't claim to be any sort of expert on the issues - I'm just some random internet person :lol:

Unless the admins disagree, it's been the policy of this forum to neither be outright Pro or Anti LGBT. We don't (as far as I know) go out of our way to celebrate any LGBT issues, and we also don't condemn LGBT issues. Anything in the rules related to acts and depictions and subject matter (things that would also apply to non-LGBT) are different matters.

I know that's kind of a cop-out for a topic that derives so much passion from people. But, I still maintain that we're all fans of the same show, and our various interpretations, hopes and personal treatments can still be enjoyed and appreciated even if they widely differ from others.

EDIT:
I don't see them special in any way either tho, that would justify them needing or getting special treatment or attention.

Your latest post slipped in while I was writing :lol: I'll go ahead and point out that, from what I've read thus far, my impression isn't that people are interested in special treatment, just treatment. Acknowledgement can mean all the difference. Others can tell me if I'm off the mark on that one.

If you want to represent gays or whatever, fine, do that in your own work or creations...but don't demand others to do it in their work and/or creations...


Everything thus far has just fallen under the same notion as other topics: what-ifs and preferences that are at best suggestions and indicators of an audience's leanings. I don't think anyone has gathered into a mob with pitchforks and marched around Tremblay Bros. Studios yet :D
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Re: LGBT characters in Swat Kats

Postby Poecat » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:36 am

MoDaD wrote:Unless the admins disagree, it's been the policy of this forum to neither be outright Pro or Anti LGBT. We don't (as far as I know) go out of our way to celebrate any LGBT issues, and we also don't condemn LGBT issues. Anything in the rules related to acts and depictions and subject matter (things that would also apply to non-LGBT) are different matters.


You are correct MoDaD.

MoDaD wrote:I know that's kind of a cop-out for a topic that derives so much passion from people. But, I still maintain that we're all fans of the same show, and our various interpretations, hopes and personal treatments can still be enjoyed and appreciated even if they widely differ from others.


Exactly. RazorHappyCait
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Re: LGBT characters in Swat Kats

Postby Mikazo » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:08 pm

While I am an advocate for LGBT issues, I agree that focusing too much on this issue could detract from the show. It is an action show. It doesn't need to be like Zootopia, with some message attached. Not everything has to be a social commentary. There is a time and place for it.

Hinting at a character's orientation may be one way of addressing the issue. There is another way too. Just feature a same-sex couple. Undertale did this - there is a same-sex couple in it and that is treated as a non-issue.

One of my favorite comic strips is Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal. Aside from its sheer brilliance as a comic (my opinion only, and I am full of those!), it routinely features very diverse characters - same-sex couples, people from different races, and so on. It portrays diversity very well. But the focus is always 100 percent on the joke being told. So it can work without getting in the way of the story, and without pushing any kind of a message.
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Re: LGBT characters in Swat Kats

Postby Kooshmeister » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:10 pm

All I have to say is not including it is denying its existence. Nobody's saying the characters have to act gay or anything. Just one or two lines about their sexuality and bam, done. As easy as that.
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Re: LGBT characters in Swat Kats

Postby marklungo » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:30 pm

MoDaD wrote:I think Mark has already given a fair point-by-point explanation, so I won't muddy that up.


Thank you, MoDaD. I appreciate the kind words.
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Re: LGBT characters in Swat Kats

Postby Felony » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:01 pm

MoDaD wrote:Unless the admins disagree, it's been the policy of this forum to neither be outright Pro or Anti LGBT. We don't (as far as I know) go out of our way to celebrate any LGBT issues, and we also don't condemn LGBT issues. Anything in the rules related to acts and depictions and subject matter (things that would also apply to non-LGBT) are different matters.

I know that's kind of a cop-out for a topic that derives so much passion from people. But, I still maintain that we're all fans of the same show, and our various interpretations, hopes and personal treatments can still be enjoyed and appreciated even if they widely differ from others.


I agree. This forum takes no official stance on LGBT issues. Nor does MegakatCity.com condone or condemn religious beliefs and/or political stances. SWAT Kats is a light hearted action adventure animated series geared to kids and enjoyed by adults as well. We aren't here to pick a side on is it right or wrong on this and various other issues. We are here as a place of discussion in all things SWAT Kats.

This topic of having one or more of the show's characters being homosexual/bisexual is as old as the fandom itself. With attitudes in regards to people who are LGBT, there are more SK fans who are in favor of it than were in years past. I'd like for this forum to be a place open to such discussion so long as parties stay civil.

Personally, and I say this as a member, not an admin, I feel this particular series isn't the place for addressing issues in regards to sexual orientation. Then again I'm not really one for 'shipping' and while I don't mind cute romance elements, I don't seek that out. If the series creators add an LGBT character then that won't change my opinion of the series, so long as it keeps its original feel and doesn't become the focus of the series.

Here's something only a handful of you know that I'm going to share when this very subject came up in Poecat an mine's SWAT Kats: Nova Squadron comic. Kyle is actually bisexual. I've played as him in various SKRPGs over the years and his character developed over time. It fits for him, for his personality. Thing is, I didn't feel it was necessary to address this in the comic itself (which is already pushing a bit on going above a G/Y-7 rating XD). While the baddies are getting attention, Poecat and I are aiming to keep the new SKs as the main focus of the story. While Kyle is bisexual, it isn't all he's about, it's just one of the many things about him. That aspect of him isn't going to add to the story we're telling so is being left out. It's just a creative choice. Only so much that can be done in an issue which as y'all know can take awhile to produce given Poecat and I have busy schedules and obligations elsewhere.

The Tremblays may or may not decide to include an LGBT character with the continuation of SWAT Kats. It's their vision, their world. Writing fic, drawing art, making comics, posing theories, debating on whether or not Chopshop is a frikkin' hyena or not LOL these are what fandom is about. Should they like an idea a fan has done then that'd be awesome. They're even considering having a contest for fans to submit ideas. All in all, as the ones who came up with the whole thing, they will have the ultimate say and we should respect the canon and have fun with the fanon.
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Re: LGBT characters in Swat Kats

Postby Jacob1290 » Wed May 10, 2017 9:42 am

duz_machines_1984 wrote:Jake and Chance are gay as heck. That's how I read them, anyway. I can't imagine them NOT gay for each other, TBH, based on their behaviors in the show. But, by "gay as heck", I actually mean bisexual/pansexual because, as mentioned, they both have other love interests in canon. The idea of an OT3 situation with Callie is what I go to, but I'm not sure if all of their personalities would lend well to an OT3; polyamory is tricky and Chance seems like the jealous type. I imagine Felina as a lesbian.

As for the OPs question of a petition, let's not get ahead of ourselves. It doesn't look as though there is going to be a new show at this time. I bet a Swat Kats comic would be neat, though, and cheaper to produce. There's no reason that a new Swat Kats couldn't have more LGBTQ characters; look at Steven Universe. It's incredibly diverse in many ways without it being the focus of the show; great characters who happen to be LGBTQ in some way. Having more representation could be important and positive for kids fleshing out their identities and learning who they are, and also that's it's okay to be who they are. That kind of representation matters a lot for LGBTQ kids, so it would be rad to have. Not holding my breath for it, though, and don't expect it if a new show does happen. It also always kind of bothers me that LGBTQ relationships of a PG level are viewed as inappropriate or inherently political while straight relationships are not. If Callie/Felina/Turmoil can be love interests without detracting from the show's appropriateness or enjoyability, why not male love interests? Just because a character is gay or bisexual doesn't mean romance would need to be a focus of the show anymore than it already was.


You bring up a lot of valid points
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Re: LGBT characters in Swat Kats

Postby Kooshmeister » Wed May 10, 2017 10:53 am

duz_machines_1984 wrote:I ship it now


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