S2E08b - The Origin of Dr. Viper

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Re: S2E08b - The Origin of Dr. Viper

Postby Ocelot » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:03 pm

A question of logic here in the characters.

- If Purvis only cared about money. Then why is he working for what looks like a nonprofit organization? Considering he is smarter then Zyme, he could have made it on his own.
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Re: S2E08b - The Origin of Dr. Viper

Postby marklungo » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:23 pm

Ocelot wrote:A question of logic here in the characters.

- If Purvis only cared about money. Then why is he working for what looks like a nonprofit organization? Considering he is smarter then Zyme, he could have made it on his own.


Is Purvis smarter than Zyme? He's certainly more ruthless.
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Re: S2E08b - The Origin of Dr. Viper

Postby Kooshmeister » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:50 pm

I wouldn't call Purvis smarter. After all, it was Zyme, not him, who figured out how to use viper extract (unforeseen consequences and all). Purvis acted like he doubted it would work, and he seemed genuinely surprised when it did. In fact, other than trimming the rose they used as a test subject, the episode provides no evidence that Purvis contributed anything to the project besides bellyaching about money all the time.

Then there's his "plan" (and I'm being generous here) to steal Zyme's work. First, taking the entire jar of mutagen and the notes instead of only taking a little bit of the former and copying the latter, means that not only would the theft be easily discovered, but it would also be easily traced back to him. And not only doesn't he wait until he's sure Zyme is gone, he proves how sucky he is at thinking on the fly when he encounters Zyme in the hallway - rather than thinking up something resembling a plausible explanation for why he has the mutagen and notes, he simply outright states he's stealing them and runs. Then he adds an assault charge to his rap sheet by punching Zyme when he chases after him. Every action he takes upon being caught serves only to dig himself in deeper.

And who said Megakat Biochemical Labs is non-profit? Yes, Manx gave it a grant, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Even for-profit research facilities receive funding. Scientists are often criminally underpaid. And Zyme's decision to donate the Viper Mutagen to the city instead of making money off of it could simply be a one-time deal; and judging from Purvis' reaction, it was a last-minute decision that Zyme didn't consult with him about beforehand (probably because he figured, wrongly, that Purvis was just as altruistic as he was).

And if Megakat Biochemical is non-profit, then Purvis is an even bigger moron for getting a job there expecting to make money.

So, no; Dr. Viper is smarter than Zyme, but Dr. Purvis was IMO a lazy and incompetent scientist and an even worse thief. I think being turned into an undead mutant abomination actually improved Purvis' intellect. TboneLaughCait
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Re: S2E08b - The Origin of Dr. Viper

Postby Ocelot » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:19 pm

Kooshmeister wrote:
Then there's his "plan" (and I'm being generous here) to steal Zyme's work. First, taking the entire jar of mutagen and the notes instead of only taking a little bit of the former and copying the latter, means that not only would the theft be easily discovered, but it would also be easily traced back to him. And not only doesn't he wait until he's sure Zyme is gone,
To be fair Zyme coming back was pure dumb luck. How was Purvis suppose to know he forgot his glasses. If the theft was discovered how does it link back to Purvis? I say Purvis has a pretty good chance of getting away considering how awful the security guard is in the building. Anybody could have broken and stolen it.

Kooshmeister wrote:he proves how sucky he is at thinking on the fly when he encounters Zyme in the hallway - rather than thinking up something resembling a plausible explanation for why he has the mutagen and notes, he simply outright states he's stealing them and runs.
I think it was pretty obvious what he was doing. What excuse was he suppose to come up with? He's taking the formula out for a walk. ViperLaughCait

Kooshmeister wrote:Then he adds an assault charge to his rap sheet by punching Zyme when he chases after him. Every action he takes upon being caught serves only to dig himself in deeper.
I don't think cared at that point. And to be fair the Enforcers don't have a great reputation at catching runaway felons. If someone like Lenny Ringtail can escape them. Then Purvis probably liked his chances.
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Re: S2E08b - The Origin of Dr. Viper

Postby Kooshmeister » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:21 pm

Ocelot wrote:To be fair Zyme coming back was pure dumb luck. How was Purvis suppose to know he forgot his glasses. If the theft was discovered how does it link back to Purvis? I say Purvis has a pretty good chance of getting away considering how awful the security guard is in the building. Anybody could have broken and stolen it.


But he still could've waited until he was sure he was gone. It was a big risk.

Ocelot wrote:If the theft was discovered how does it link back to Purvis?


Why wouldn't the assistant of the scientist who'd made it be a primary suspect? Especially considering:

Ocelot wrote:Anybody could have broken and stolen it.


Not just anybody either knew it was valuable, or that it even existed, outside of Zyme, Purvis, Manx and Callie. That's a very small pool of suspects, and Purvis would stand out, as he'd remained behind after Zyme left. Then there's how vocal he was about wishing they could profit off of the formula. Admittedly, most of it was behind Zyme's back, but he did make comments to Zyme himself about his desire for money ("How do they pay off for us?").

Plus: Security cameras. I'm positive someplace like Megakat Biochemical has them. Footage of Purvis walking into the lab and taking the mutagen and notes would exist. Admissible in court and just cause for a warrant.

Ocelot wrote:I think it was pretty obvious what he was doing. What excuse was he suppose to come up with? He's taking the formula out for a walk.


Not necessarily. He could've said he was moving it to somewhere more secure. Perhaps chide Zyme good-naturedly for being absentminded and forgetting to lock it up somewhere safe. He had a lot of options in that instant that didn't involve burning his bridges and going on the run. Anything other than "I'm taking the formula, Zyme!" would've made him seem remotely like he was actually carrying out a plan as opposed to just winging it like a moron.

Ocelot wrote:And to be fair the Enforcers don't have a great reputation at catching runaway felons. If someone like Lenny Ringtail can escape them. Then Purvis probably liked his chances.


Lenny evaded them, at most, for half a night. I'm sure that he would've eventually been caught. One incident of them failing to capture a regular escaped mental patient is hardly indicative of their competence. Considering we see comparatively little ordinary crime in Megakat City, I'd say they do a pretty good job of handling normal crooks, which Purvis was at that point. He wasn't Viper yet, just a greedy lab assistant.

No matter how you spin it, his theft attempt was pretty sloppy. As I said, he would've done better to just copy Zyme's notes discretely. But then we wouldn't have an episode, heh. So I maintain that there's little evidence of Purvis being more intelligent than Zyme. I'm not sure where you got "Zyme isn't smart" from. His only demonstrable shortcoming is that he's a really terrible judge of character. I reiterate that what made the mutagen work at all was Zyme's idea. I'm convinced he was the main creative force behind the project. I think Purvis was riding his coattails at best.
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Re: S2E08b - The Origin of Dr. Viper

Postby MoDaD » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:51 pm

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Re: S2E08b - The Origin of Dr. Viper

Postby marklungo » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:31 pm

So now we get to read a SWAT Kats script that was actually made--and compare it to the finished episode. Thanks, MoDaD! BroFistIcon
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Re: S2E08b - The Origin of Dr. Viper

Postby Kooshmeister » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:43 am

marklungo wrote:So now we get to read a SWAT Kats script that was actually made--and compare it to the finished episode. Thanks, MoDaD! BroFistIcon


I've already been doing that with The Pastmaster Always Rings Twice.

One difference I notice in this script is that Emil is named Smitty in this script, and he actually accompanies Feral and the Enforcers up to the fourteenth floor and gets splatted with paralyzing fluid, despite a heroic effort to shut the elevator doors in time. RazLaugh
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Re: S2E08b - The Origin of Dr. Viper

Postby Felony » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:50 am

Kooshmeister wrote:I wouldn't call Purvis smarter. After all, it was Zyme, not him, who figured out how to use viper extract (unforeseen consequences and all). Purvis acted like he doubted it would work, and he seemed genuinely surprised when it did. In fact, other than trimming the rose they used as a test subject, the episode provides no evidence that Purvis contributed anything to the project besides bellyaching about money all the time.


The episode does give the impression that Purvis was a big help in the creation of the formula. Zyme even states he couldn’t have done it without Purvis and “all these years of research are finally paying off”. Zyme thought to use Viper extract and Purvis had doubts. Those doubts turned out to be reasonable given the side effects. Zyme might have been the project’s lead, but Purvis aided in the years of research and development. Not saying Purvis was smarter, just that he was smart enough to be on the project with Zyme.

Kooshmeister wrote:Then there's his "plan" (and I'm being generous here) to steal Zyme's work. First, taking the entire jar of mutagen and the notes instead of only taking a little bit of the former and copying the latter, means that not only would the theft be easily discovered, but it would also be easily traced back to him.


I don’t think Purvis cared that he would be found out as having stolen the research. If he had left and tried selling the formula, most likely the theft would have landed him in court.

Kooshmeister wrote:And not only doesn't he wait until he's sure Zyme is gone, he proves how sucky he is at thinking on the fly when he encounters Zyme in the hallway - rather than thinking up something resembling a plausible explanation for why he has the mutagen and notes, he simply outright states he's stealing them and runs.


As Ocelot stated, Zyme coming back was dumb luck. He assumed he already left. Heck Zyme was almost at the exit after going down the elevator. As Purvis also put years of research into the formula, he probably felt he had the right to take it and profit from it. Again it shows he didn’t care about Zyme finding out.

Kooshmeister wrote:Then he adds an assault charge to his rap sheet by punching Zyme when he chases after him. Every action he takes upon being caught serves only to dig himself in deeper.


That was his greed kicking in. It was a dumb move on his part in his desperation to get away as the situation escalated.

Kooshmeister wrote:So, no; Dr. Viper is smarter than Zyme, but Dr. Purvis was IMO a lazy and incompetent scientist and an even worse thief. I think being turned into an undead mutant abomination actually improved Purvis' intellect. TboneLaughCait


So the formula also heightened Purvis’ intellect? You’re assuming a lot about Purvis from a few glimpses into the last moments of his life before becoming Dr. Viper. Nothing suggested he was lazy or incompetent as far as his work with Zyme was concerned. His thievery wasn’t well thought out true, but I chalk it up to having the story work in a short amount of time.
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Re: S2E08b - The Origin of Dr. Viper

Postby Kooshmeister » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:49 pm

Felony wrote:Zyme even states he couldn’t have done it without Purvis and “all these years of research are finally paying off”.


Good-hearted guy that he is, Zyme could've just been overstating Purvis' role and including him in the credit. But you're probably right.

Felony wrote:Those doubts turned out to be reasonable given the side effects.


Neither foresaw that it would have mutating effects. Purvis' doubts seemed to be that it would work at all.

Felony wrote:Heck Zyme was almost at the exit after going down the elevator.


I still say he went into the lab to grab the canister and notes way too soon, but in fairness to Purvis, this was likely a by-product of the episode's short running time needing to condense everything. A longer episode might've shown Purvis actually accompany Zyme down to the lobby to ensure he left, before going back upstairs, with Zyme realizing he forgot something right as he was about to start his car.

Felony wrote:That was his greed kicking in. It was a dumb move on his part in his desperation to get away as the situation escalated.


He escalated the situation. As I've said already a few times before, there were many ways he could've gotten out of trouble upon being caught with the formula that didn't involve proceeding directly to "I'm stealing it, mwahahaha!" He could've claimed he was taking it to a safer location, chiding his employer for his absentmindedness in leaving it just sitting out in the open in the main lab.

The question is... would Zyme have bought this? Prior to catching him with the formula, he seemed to trust Purvis completely, but he becomes immediately suspicious when he finds him holding the canister and his notes, even though there's numerous innocent reasons for why Purvis would be taking them somewhere.

So, is Purvis a stupid thief, and did Zyme secretly harbor suspicions about his assistant, suspicions confirmed upon finding him with the formula? Or is it just more evidence that the short running time needed things to compress, forcing Zyme to jump to a conclusion he probably shouldn't have, and Purvis to just randomly declare his villainy like a moron?

Felony wrote:So the formula also heightened Purvis’ intellect?


I was being facetious. RazLaugh

Felony wrote:You’re assuming a lot about Purvis from a few glimpses into the last moments of his life before becoming Dr. Viper.


We kind of have to. Even though you yourself said most of these issues are likely a result of production issues (i.e. the episode being very short), we can't write everything off that way; they need in-story explanations. And Purvis being kind of a lazy, probably mediocre scientist unsatisfied with his position who made a stupid, impatient decision to swipe the formula without thinking things through is the one I came up with.

I'll concede Purvis was intelligent (at least in scientific matters); nice guy or not, I doubt Zyme would choose a dullard as his assistant. That said, I still interpret their working relationship as Purvis' dissatisfaction with his chosen career not earning him the huge paycheck he expected going into biochemical research for profit making him unenthusiastic about his work, and Zyme being so blinded by his own excitement and enthusiasm that he was blind to both Purvis' surly attitude and the fact he was clearly a shifty character.

This of course leaves the question of how Purvis got hired in the first place. IMO, since all he cared about was money, and he took a job where he (wrongly) thought he could make a lot, he probably went to work at Megakat Biochemical in high spirits, only growing acerbic and anti-social over time as he realized he'd made a lousy career choice. This would explain why Zyme had him on board; at the time he hired Purvis, Purvis wouldn't have been the short-tempered grump we see in this episode.
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