S1E10 - Metal Urgency

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Re: S1E10 - Metal Urgency

Postby AkaneKitty » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:09 am

Kooshmeister wrote:
AkaneKitty wrote:Maybe the writers shouldn't have made Feral a Commander if they wanted someone who calls out things to be a jerk. Maybe a bean counter accountant under Callie?


I now have a mental image of Feral as a CPA. With glasses and everything. And still being ripped as heck! He'd be, like, the buffest petty office bureaucrat ever! :lol:


:lol: So dead!

But that would be kinda awesome. If not Feral, someone to annoy Callie and point out everything wrong, Enforcer and SK alike, to drive her bonkers. Look at how much the city's losing!

Ah, sweet sweet karma.

If you're going to ride Feral's tail for things I would have like someone to ride theirs. Just for the sake of fairness.
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Re: S1E10 - Metal Urgency

Postby Betaruga » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:18 am

Felony wrote:Hey I have a couple gif requests if you please for this ep. I'd love to see the Macro-Bots climbing up the buildings... heh and Razor's bot decking the Metallikats' bot. Maybe even a nice gif of the bot flaming as it flies down to the ground to go BOOM. XD


Oh, whoops! I just saw this reply XD I'll get to your request shortly!
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Re: S1E10 - Metal Urgency

Postby Betaruga » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:40 pm

Felony wrote:Hey I have a couple gif requests if you please for this ep. I'd love to see the Macro-Bots climbing up the buildings... heh and Razor's bot decking the Metallikats' bot. Maybe even a nice gif of the bot flaming as it flies down to the ground to go BOOM. XD


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Ain't nothing wrong with his left hook, baby ;)

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Not gonna lie, I love how reckless Razor is xD Honestly, he IS kinda crazier than T-Bone. I guess I've always found his recklessness (and his rebellious streak) to be interestingly juxtaposed with his otherwise reserved and relaxed nature.

"This another one of your crazy ideas, bud?"
"Hey, this is desperation time!"
"But, wait, what about the people in those towers?"
"Buuuuddyyy, I said I'm desperaaaaate. C'mooon."
"Razor, seriously. You're probably stabbing civilians with your macrobot!"
"Look, you really gonna bust my tail about it while they're off screen?"

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Not gonna lie, I reaaally cringed watching this Twin Towers finale with the ground zero ending in this post 9/11 world. This show did NOT age well on the PC front. Ouch.

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#you know they dead

OKAY THO, SERIOUSLY. I'm gonna join in the whole "two enforcers died in the tank" discussion. I rewatched the scene and honestly, I'm willing to bet it was just... a writing mistake, or a mistake in the production somewhere. Not saying anyone else's theories aren't spot on, just throwing out a few more.

Tank malfunctions after the SWAT Kats scrambler missiles do their thing, and everybody is basically watching Hard Drive's tank swerve around for 30 seconds (Enforcers have plenty of reaction time here in a cartoon sense, which is... one of the reasons why I don't actually fault the SWAT Kats here, personally) at which Feral finally jumps from the tank with 5 seconds to spare before it's crushed (again, an eternity in cartoon time, especially considering how "conveniently" most of the Enforcers tend to escape death at the last second, lets be real here). Why would they not be scrambling out their tank as fast as they usually do, with enough time to spare their lives in the scene? I don't think it was deliberately written that they die, although due to what's probably an oversight, they do. That would best explain why Feral didn't cause a stink over his two dead men, I'm guessing.

Or, darker theory here, and it may be a crack one, but the fact that Feral doesn't call out to his men to escape... and then says nothing as their corpses are crushed within the tank after, well... who's ultimately responsible for the lives of Feral's men under his command? He is. Their avoidable deaths may make him look bad. Again, dark/crack heory here xD but it would be an expansion on the negative qualities Feral showed when he crowded out our hero's plane when they had a locked target on Dark Kat--and for all their disobeying orders, was a stupid, self-serving and self-seeking order on Feral's part, not to mention his subsequent denial and blame surrounding that incident.

I know some people adore Feral (and hey, I do too) but, that's what the show tries to put across at any point, and I've never had any reason to really give Feral a pass on that, even if he's shown to be otherwise a well-intentioned, brave blowhard who's really just doing his job. Do I actually think Feral ignored their deaths in front of the press because he thought it would reflect badly on him? xD No. But I get why the show makes him the butt of jokes--vigilante stories point out why "the system" doesn't always work, and Feral and the Enforcers? They're the system. Sure, it'd be nice if they got a little bit more credit for what they do, but I figure that's been on the part of the audience to interpret in this case, and it sounds like they do :)

But, not gonna lie, I'm intrigued by the writer's take on Feral getting tempted by corruption in the original premise for Cry Turmoil, and what wasn't revealed in the incomplete Curse Of Kataluna episode when he gets tempted by a succubus xD
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Re: S1E10 - Metal Urgency

Postby AkaneKitty » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:34 am

Betaruga wrote:and for all their disobeying orders, was a stupid, self-serving and self-seeking order on Feral's part, not to mention his subsequent denial and blame surrounding that incident.


Counterpoint: But why it self serving and stupid to expect his orders to be carried out? Up until this point his orders seemed reasonable, and even his own men have no problems following them. So unless the Enforcers are loyal to a fault, what insight do Jake and Chance have on Feral that makes it okay not to follow the order? Chance was even being jerkiness to his own wingkats, so how come that gets ignored while Feral's orders, that he has a right to give, get amplified?

Keeping in mind that this was all revealed in Chance flashback and we never get Feral's side of this. I'm more than willing to concede that Feral was selfish and stupid if it ever comes out that way in his own (or a neutral) flashback, but until then, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. To me, this is the writers forcing Feral into the SK origin story, as his character in the flashback doesn't even fit the rest of that episode.

Betaruga wrote:But I get why the show makes him the butt of jokes--vigilante stories point out why "the system" doesn't always work, and Feral and the Enforcers? They're the system

I could understand the system breaking down, and therefore the need for the SKs, if Feral and/or his Enforcers were just inept and clueless about their job. Or even corrupt and unwilling to do anything. But as I stated above, Feral's orders (disregarding the SK origins for a bit) were sound and practical. There was never an order I'd go 'Huh?' about.

The system breaking down was, for the most part, due to the universe tuning up to eleven to twist itself into not working for Feral. And then Feral is looked on as an idiot for failing at something the universe contorted to have him fail at.

If the show wanted to be about rising when the system breaks down. they went about it the wrong way. As I stated in an earlier post, they really need to show and give examples of Feral's jerkiness/ineptness to make the Sk's ribbing and coming to the rescue make sense. Otherwise all I see is someone who gets the bad end of things only to make the SKs look good, when it wasn't necessary.
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Re: S1E10 - Metal Urgency

Postby Kooshmeister » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:44 am

Betaruga wrote:OKAY THO, SERIOUSLY. I'm gonna join in the whole "two enforcers died in the tank" discussion. I rewatched the scene and honestly, I'm willing to bet it was just... a writing mistake, or a mistake in the production somewhere.


Yeah, it is entirely possible the writers just forgot those two guys were even in there.

Betaruga wrote:Why would they not be scrambling out their tank as fast as they usually do, with enough time to spare their lives in the scene?


A similar instance occurs in Katastrophe when the Sergeant's tank gets rolled. We only see him bail out. And although, unlike here, we aren't shown any crew, logic dictates there must be at the least a driver.

Betaruga wrote:Or, darker theory here, and it may be a crack one, but the fact that Feral doesn't call out to his men to escape... and then says nothing as their corpses are crushed within the tank after, well... who's ultimately responsible for the lives of Feral's men under his command? He is.


A good point. I suppose one could make the argument he expected them to follow him out the hatch, but that'd be a weak excuse and he'd know it.

Betaruga wrote:But, not gonna lie, I'm intrigued by the writer's take on Feral getting tempted by corruption in the original premise for Cry Turmoil, and what wasn't revealed in the incomplete Curse Of Kataluna episode when he gets tempted by a succubus xD


I've never liked that original idea for Cry Turmoil. It was the one good "screw the supporting characters, focus only on T-Bone and Razor" edict handed down from on high. That's just my personal opinion, though. A slightly modified version of it, where Feral, like T-Bone, is faking it, though, would be something I'd support, since it'd play with our expectations and surprise us. Because unlike T-Bone who the audience knows would never turn evil, there'd be some genuine suspense with whether or not Feral was being sincere. What I don't like about their original idea, though, is the twist that, yeah, he was, when I think that, no, he wasn't, he was just faking it, would've been far more interesting and positive character development for Feral.
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Re: S1E10 - Metal Urgency

Postby Betaruga » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:43 am

AkaneKitty wrote: As I stated in an earlier post, they really need to show and give examples of Feral's jerkiness/ineptness to make the Sk's ribbing and coming to the rescue make sense. Otherwise all I see is someone who gets the bad end of things only to make the SKs look good, when it wasn't necessary.


Interestingly enough, that's exactly what Lance Falk did before executives told him to keep the story to the SWAT Kats, and off Feral.

From swatkats.info: (http://swatkats.info/episodes/season-2/ ... il/summary)

Falk originally conceived “Cry Turmoil” as a “bookend” to “Metal Urgency,” in which he depicted Commander Feral as a character with integrity: “I wanted to show that he could be a really bad guy under the right circumstances. At the very beginning of the episode, Feral is made a bigger fool than ever by the SWAT Kats. He loses his cool and gets fired. Turmoil is impressed with him in spite of all that. She sees that 1. He knows all the city’s weak points, 2. He’s as mad at the SWAT Kats as she is, 3. She finds him virile and manly, and 4. He’s got nothing to lose by joining her, because he just got drummed out.”

Feral joins with Turmoil, just as T-Bone does in the finished episode. But unlike T-Bone, Feral really does become a villain: “He’s not just pretending, not just waiting for the right moment to turn the tables on her.” When Feral realizes that the SWAT Kats are going to beat Turmoil, “He turns on her out of self-interest and says ‘I was planning to do this all along'”, and at the end only Feral and the audience know the truth. Falk’s idea was changed by an H-B executive who said, “The show’s about Razor and T- Bone, so make her fall in love with T-Bone instead.” Falk says this changed the tone of the episode: “It’s possible that Feral would be bad, but it’s never possible that T-Bone would ever betray his partner, so there’s nothing suspenseful about it.” As for Commander Feral, he doesn’t even appear in the final version of “Cry Turmoil.”


Personally, I think that that would have been a fascinating (and chilling) take for Feral as a character, and more in line with how the writers used Feral in the SWAT Kats origin story--and let's face it, that's where his story as a character starts, if anything his more redeeming qualities come across as more surprising and "inserted" than his original conception in SWAT Kats. Those are my two cents. I'll be frank and add that I sense that you're holding a torch for Feral and the Enforcers in general for whatever reason, and you're entitled to that. I don't share my stance as an intent to change your mind when it's clearly set, but actually find this topic interesting in general and hope everybody reading it feels invited to participate :)
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Re: S1E10 - Metal Urgency

Postby Kooshmeister » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:22 am

I find your appeal to what was originally intended strange, as if that's all that matters, and the fact that for whatever reason the various writers quickly ditched this idea for a slightly more sympathetic depiction of him ought to be disregarded because it doesn't gel with how he was originally conceived. Shows and the depiction of characters in them evolve gradually over time.

As shows go on, they go through a period of growing pains wherein the producers and writers find things that seemed okay in their original conception, only to gradually alter or phase them out as the show continues. So the creators' original ideas don't really quite enter into it past a certain point, at least not where canon is concerned. And although an attempt to make Feral not just a jerk but potentially an outright villain was obviously pitched, it isn't canon because Falk's idea didn't get used. If it had, it would've clashed mightily with Feral's behavior up to that point, especially in a season two episode!

Weirder still is your assertion that the frequent glimpses of a nicer side to Feral are out of character, again because they clash with the original conception of him, when I'd argue the opposite is true; that these instances are evidence of the writers' apparent desire to give the character some depth, and that any instances where he seems like a jerk just to be a jerk in accordance with the original description of him in promo material, are actually just "early installment weirdness" (thanks TV Tropes) and, since almost all of them occur early in season one (Falk's ideas for season two's Cry Turmoil notwithstanding), I'd call them a case of the writers still trying to figure Feral out as a character, hitting their stride with who and what they wanted him to be about halfway through the season, coming to fruition in Katastrophe, with this changed depiction of Feral as a less gruff, somewhat more subdued guy (by comparison) evident throughout season two, even, weirdly, in The Origin of Dr. Viper.

Therefore, it's my opinion that Falk's idea for Feral came too late. If it'd been a season one story, back before they'd fully cemented who Feral is, I could've bought it. But by the time of season two he was far and away a different character than originally conceived and so I honestly don't think it would've worked quite as well as Falk seems to think it would've. And so this is why I'm glad it wasn't used; I disagree with why it wasn't used (I haven't heard much good said about Buzz Potamkin, the guy apparently nixed it along with a lot of other Falk ideas), but think it's a case of a right decision being made for the wrong reason. Or something.

EDIT: Although it occurs to me I'm a massive hypocrite, preferring the "Steel" spelling despite the nameplate seen in Enter the Madkat, simply because "it's what came first." :lol:
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Re: S1E10 - Metal Urgency

Postby Betaruga » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:39 pm

Guess we can agree to disagree that some fans find it strange that other fans would appeal to the idea that Feral actually does fall into the "jerk" category along with his other traits as a character (some of which are pragmatic and sympathetic for instance) based off the SWAT Kats origin story or any other instances of his bullheadedness in the show. I personally think it's reasonable, but to each their own?

As for the writers sticking with the original script for Feral and Turmoil and fleshing out his character more, I think it would have worked out and not seen as "too late" of a development for Feral, as it was only the second season of the series, and characters gain depth/become good/become bad/become awesome/being morally ambiguous and whatnot all the time in books and TV series, many even far further along than a second installment in a series, and it works swimmingly. I enjoy thinking about Feral getting expanded upon like that, because I sense lots of fun and untapped potential in him as a character :) I'm excited to see him (and all the other characters) given more depth in the reboot if the kickstarter process succeeds--for good or bad. If they're gonna keep him as is, that's also fine. If they expand more on his sympathetic qualities, also cool. If they make him a more complicated character, with a mix of sympathetic and non-sympathetic traits, that's cool, too! I dig it :)
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Re: S1E10 - Metal Urgency

Postby Kooshmeister » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:22 pm

Guess so. I just feel it would've been a step backwards in his character development up to that point and undone a lot of his more noble moments like refusing the Metallikats' offer in this episode, and, in fact, his aligning himself with Turmoil would seem to fly in the fact of the explanations he gave to them and Callie about why he did it. "I don't deal with scum!" (no deals with villains) and "I just didn't want to owe those two hoods anything" (he finds the concept of being somehow indebted to villains distasteful). If he sided with Turmoil, even after Manx had fired him and he wasn't in law enforcement anymore, he'd not only making a deal with a villain, but indebted to her (for hiring him).

Now, I get that Falk's idea is that when Turmoil makes her offer, Feral is at an extremely low point and consequently may be open to her suggestion, possibly even believing that his strict and honorable way of doing things hasn't worked out for him so far, so maybe it's time to break the rules and strike out on his own since, hey, it worked for the SWAT Kats, but I'd prefer it if the path the story took had Feral realizing he's basically sold his soul and turning against Turmoil out of a despairing sense of guilt and contributing to her defeat, redeeming himself, as opposed to Falk's idea where he only betrays her when her defeat is certain so he won't go down with her. Falk clearly thinks less of Feral than I do, heh.

Were Feral to genuinely turn bad but eventually equally genuinely realize the error of his ways, I can see an ending wherein Turmoil taunts him about how willing he was to do as she said and so he's just as guilty as she was, and he says something like, "Yes, until I looked beyond the beauty and saw the inner ugliness," and, of his guilt, "Yes, and it's something I'll have to face myself." That, to me, is just far more interesting than, "Haha, I was evil all along and am now going to somehow seamlessly slip back into good guy and apparently go back and forth between being a good guy and a bad guy from now on!"

But, as you say, agree to disagree.
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Re: S1E10 - Metal Urgency

Postby Felony » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:14 pm

Betaruga wrote:Image

Fun fact: one of the "technical" descriptors here is "CORPSE MAGGOTTS".


In closer inspection of these frames, I did a google search for their meanings to see what would pop up.

In the first technical info it says "MONTEE DE BEAU RIVAGE" which is some place in Monaco where a Grand Prix is held. It says in the second technical info "CORPSE MAGGOTTS BECKETTS CHAPEL" which is a track complex in Britain with difficult curves. In the third technical info it has a description of Spanish words describing a race track.

I have no idea WHAT the heck international auto racing had to do with the status of Jake and Chance's bodies but... yeah, it's all racing related. LOL I wonder if someone is a fan and just randomly threw in those things just to have something technical looking, figuring no one is gonna notice (just like in the newspaper article that doesn't match up the headline or pic I mention here). XD

Also, YES thanks for making those gifs I requested btw!
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