What would you like to see in the new series?

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Re: What would you like to see in the new series?

Post by Darker » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:28 pm

Also, I may be misremembering but I feel like there were too many villains who had a grudge on somebody, especially Mayor Manx. Maybe that was mostly season 1, but I'd like bigger variety, as a whole and motivations-wise, though the SWAT Kats' rogues gallery is already pretty solid.
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Re: What would you like to see in the new series?

Post by Kooshmeister » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:51 am

MKIcon The Metallikats - Definitely. The had a grudge against Manx because they thought he denied their parole. This grudge then was ported over to Callie after she revealed she'd intercepted the bribe and turned it down on Manx's behalf. As for Manx, they still want to kill him because... I dunno, but Molly still wants to kill him in The Metallikats even after Callie took the heat for him, and she and Mac still act like they have something against him as of Katastrophe. After this episode, though, the grudge against both seems to have been dropped from any Metallikats related stories, except maybe A Bright and Shiny Future, although their wanting to kill Callie and Manx there seemed to have more to do with pragmatically executing the former leaders of the city/current leaders of the resistance as an example.

Rex Shard - He definitely had a preexisting grudge against Meece, but it was just the hatred a prisoner has for his jailer. The grudge against Greenbox was developed over the course of the story as Shard (unfairly) blamed Greenbox for his condition, even though it was his own fault for mucking with the Gemkat 6000 when he didn't understand how it worked. The Meece grudge was settled with the Warden's death, and the Greenbox one with him being turned to crystal. And even though Greenbox got returned to normal, so did Shard, and even though it was a rejected story idea, Cold War never mentions Shard wanting to get Greenbox anymore. Taking this as writer's intent, it seems as though Shard's grudge against Greenbox went away after he got returned to normal.

redlynxicon The Red Lynx - An odd case. He didn't seem to have a grudge against Manx in particular, but his great-grandfather. The episode is maddeningly unclear whether he thinks Manx is the Blue Manx, or whether he's using him as a proxy for someone he can't get revenge on (similar to Madkat), or if he just wants to kill a Manx, any Manx. The episode seems to waver back and forth between the first theory ("I know just who you are, and I've waited a long time for this, Manx!") and one of the other two ("This Manx isn't even a worthy opponent!").

Madkatlaughing Madkat - Definitely. Not only did the guy whose body he took over have a grudge against someone, but Madkat himself had a grudge against the four people he blamed for imprisoning him. But only the Lenny Ringtail aspect of the merged being's personality had a specific grudge against a specific person he could actively take vengeance against: David Litterbin. Madkat himself didn't seem to care about Litterbin, Manx, Feral and Callie in and of themselves beyond proxies for people long dead who he couldn't get revenge against. But he and the guy he possessed were both still revenge-based villains.

TurmoilIcon Turmoil - Although season two mostly dropped the "villains want revenge" angle (outside of the aforementioned grudges against the SWAT Kats for being a nuisance), the unfinished episode Turmoil 2: The Revenge featured possibly the most epic case of a grudge ever. Specifically, in addition to obviously wanting revenge against T-Bone and to a lesser extent Razor, Turmoil explicitly says she wants revenge against the entire city as payback for being put in prison (!). Again, the episode wasn't finished, but unlike Cold War, it was intended to be, so, taking this as writer's intent, Turmoil is the most vengeful of vengeful villains; she'll make an entire city pay for what was (in her own words) a minor inconvenience. Such a fragile ego she's got!

There's also Dr. Viper. ViperSMile

I only bring him up because it's often stated he held some kind of grudge against Dr. Zyme, but this never actually came up in either episode Zyme appears in. Viper didn't seem to care about his former boss besides dismissing him as idealistic and arrogant. He also never made an concerted effort to kill Zyme; he only wanted to mutate him, but he also wanted to mutate Callie and Manx, two people he, at that time, had no reason to like or dislike, and Zyme dying or not in The Giant Bacteria was entirely incidental to Viper's main plan to steal Katalyst 99 and Viper, again, didn't seem to care one way or another. If anything, considering that unlike a lot of the other villains, Viper prefers his current state to his old one, it's likely he had some kind of twisted gratitude towards Zyme and his avenging briefcase for making him take that fatal tumble.
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Re: What would you like to see in the new series?

Post by Mikazo » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:17 pm

It seems that the villains are for the most part motivated by revenge, power, or greed in their myriad forms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are there any villains whose only real motive is boredom or the sheer enjoyment of causing havoc?

While many of the villains clearly enjoy doing what they are doing, I can't think of too many whose primary motivation is to have fun. The only ones that come to mind are perhaps Rex Shard and, to some extent, Hard Drive.

The reason I bring this up is because I wonder if, in a hypothetical reboot with new villains, the creators could get away with having at least one villain with with no real motive for their mischief other than their own personal amusement.
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Re: What would you like to see in the new series?

Post by Kooshmeister » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:12 am

Mikazo wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:17 pm
It seems that the villains are for the most part motivated by revenge, power, or greed in their myriad forms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are there any villains whose only real motive is boredom or the sheer enjoyment of causing havoc?
Morbulus didn't seem to have a stated reason for blowing up all those oil refineries (beyond T-Bone dismissing him as "crazy"). He seemed to be doing it just because it was fun to him.

And although Chopshop is said to have committed theft (judging by the police code the Enforcers use - a "211" is a robbery), he too seemed to just be basically out for a joyride, Joker style.

And finally, Volcanus seemed to possess no higher motivation than "smash everything in his path." Apart from specifically targeting the bulldozer which hit the Talisman Stone, the closest he comes to seeking any kind of vengeance, he really did just want to cause chaos and destruction for the sake of it. And even that may have just been sheer coincidence, as Volcanus probably had no clue how the Talisman Stone was destroyed and probably didn't care, either; judging by the way the islander explained it, the Talisman Stone is what was keeping Volcanus imprisoned inside the volcano, so if anything, he was probably grateful it got smashed. Meaning his targeting the bulldozer which hit it, whether intentionally or not, was really petty, even for an evil fire demon (to quote Dark Kat, "Such gratitude!").
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Re: What would you like to see in the new series?

Post by Mikazo » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:46 am

Kooshmeister wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:12 am
Yeah, those are good points. In the bigger picture it makes me wonder how important it really is for villains to have clearly defined motives. Sometimes it may be less necessary when you just want to focus on the action.
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Re: What would you like to see in the new series?

Post by Leon Mane » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:13 am

A Joker type character would be interesting. Maybe they're not out to hurt anyone, and any damage they cause is mostly cosmetic, vandalism at the worst, but it causes enough of an inconvenience that the SWAT Kats end up getting called in. The SKs win the first time, so this new villain declares them to be his/her new rivals.
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Re: What would you like to see in the new series?

Post by Mikazo » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:16 pm

Leon Mane wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:13 am
A Joker type character would be interesting. Maybe they're not out to hurt anyone, and any damage they cause is mostly cosmetic, vandalism at the worst, but it causes enough of an inconvenience that the SWAT Kats end up getting called in. The SKs win the first time, so this new villain declares them to be his/her new rivals.
It seemed that Madkat had the potential to be that villain, but he was motivated by revenge.
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Re: What would you like to see in the new series?

Post by Kooshmeister » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:39 am

And the Joker hasn't been? Anyway, just because Madkat was motivated by vengeance in his debut episode doesn't mean he can't be motivated by a desire to just cause trouble for the fun of it in later ones. Madkatlaughing
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Re: What would you like to see in the new series?

Post by Leon Mane » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:47 am

An odd thing about the Joker is that, depending on the writer, his motivation is basically random. Yes, he has an agenda, but it's like he has a combination of ADD and OCD. He hyper-fixates on something until he can get it done, or he would, until his ADD kicks in and something else demands his attention and focus. Most days he's planning something to either kill Batman, or get Batman to kill him or someone else ('Anyone can be like me. All it takes is one bad day'.), But once in a while, he sees something, maybe a newspaper article, a story on channel 5, he hears something on The Morning Zoo, and he decides to drop everything and, with absolutely no I'll intent, no malice, and no plans on doing any harm whatsoever, do a gig at a children's birthday party to make the children smile and laugh, and is completely genuine about doing so.

I remember a clip from an episode where Booster Gold gives a tour of the Justice League Watchtower. Four people; a kid with a backpack, a disguised robot (I think), an old lady, and a girl in high school. The kid, robot, and old lady (Granny Goodness with sunglasses ('Come on, I'm barely even wearing a disguise')) were villains planning on destroying the Watchtower or killing at least one hero. With three of them outed as villains, the camera pans to the girl, and she, rips off a mask to reveal the Joker. He smiles as he happily says "Helloooo". Booster simply responds "Are you kidding me? I suppose you've got some kind of toxic gas?" The Joker genuinely replies "No. I really was just interested in the tour! *Gestures to his get-up, consisting of a blouse, skirt, and I think knee socks* Got this idea from an old Bugs Bunny cartoon. *Laughs gleefully*"
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Re: What would you like to see in the new series?

Post by Kooshmeister » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:05 am

Well, like I said, Madkat can conceivably be more like that. It's just that in his debut episode he was understandably vengeance-hungry after centuries stuck as a kat-in-the-box.
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