Hypothesis: humanity as extinct precursors

This is a place for OOC hypothetical discussions on the show.
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Re: Hypothesis: humanity as extinct precursors

Post by Kooshmeister » Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:56 am

EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
Before I start, does anyone know if it is possible to upload photos from my hard drive to the forum? Thank you very much.
You might wanna use an image-hosting service. I use ImgBB, myself.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
If we go down that road, that means Feral is an unscrupulous cretin willing to ally himself with a criminal capable of threatening the city HE swore to defend just to have a chance to defeat the Swat kats. But we know he's not like that from the HQ Enforcer incident, right?
Well... yes. Unused ideas are still evidence of creator intent, and therefore just as the original ending of When Strikes Mutilor suggests the writers intended the kat planet to be an alien one, the original concept for Cry Turmoil means that they also believe Feral has it in him to turn bad under the right circumstances. I may not like it, but it is the case that Lance Falk thought so and that Buzz Potamkin vetoed it not because he thought it went against Feral's character, but because he thought it would be more interesting if Turmoil fell for T-Bone instead, due to his "always focus on the SWAT Kats" attitude that kept a lot of the supporting cast relegated to the sidelines.

Again, I don't like it, and don't really agree with it, but clearly Lance Falk thinks Feral could turn evil under the right circumstances, even though this has never actually happened in the show (and I hope it never does). For what it's worth, I think people assume Feral was intended to turn on a dime, whereas, when clarifying things, Falk insisted that the Commander would have to endure not simply being fired but an extended string of humiliations and bad luck before finally being pushed to the brink. Based on having it put that way, it's less "Feral has it in him to turn evil" and more "almost everyone does."

Potamkin was also the one who torpedoed the original ending for When Strikes Mutilor, apparently because he just personally found the idea of the crew turning out to be humans dumb. Based on his track record, the man was the king of doing the right things for the wrong reasons. TboneLaughCait
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
That evidence is extremely poor to the point that it is not even circumstantial: It is the same as saying that the series does not take place on Earth because the sun and the moon look too big in the sky, when we all know that this is done as an artistic resource to give more drama or better aesthetics to the scene.
Wrong. Whether you like it or not, Earth doesn't have green skies. And while, yes, the sky has been other colors in other episodes (red in The Giant Bacteria and The Ghost Pilot, blue in Chaos in Crystal and yellow in When Strikes Mutilor), it is nevertheless consistently green throughout the series, ergo this is most likely its primary color, and the other instances are (out of universe) stylistic choices and (in-universe) likely the result of things like the time of day or weather conditions. For example, the backgrounds for The Giant Bacteria indicate that they're for early morning. Combine this with the fact the red sky in The Ghost Pilot is seen after the sun rises (the Red Lynx escapes the museum at night and attacks City Hall in what appears to be the morning) and we have evidence that skies on their world are reddish in the morning.

And speaking of yellow skies, the sky is a kind of yellowish in the Dead Forest in The Giant Bacteria, which makes me think a yellow sky on the kat world means haze or possibly heat or humidity. Likely the former, given the blue sky in the very hot desert in Chaos in Crystal.

So, bottom line, the sky is usually green, which, when combined with the fact the planet is popular by anthropomorphic felines, lends itself towards the world not being Earth. It's not definitive, it's no smoking gun, but it is in fact a little more than just circumstantial.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
Or, it may be mere artistic license: in Invader Zim, the sky was reddish-yellowish during the day and purple-violet at night, while in Rocket Power, the daytime sky was yellowish, except for cloudy days when it was blue or gray. And if I remember correctly, both series take place mostly on Earth.
But Invader Zim does take place on Earth and is highly stylized with a completely different visual and artistic approach to SWAT Kats. So how it portrays the skies of Earth has nothing to do with what we're discussing. Pick a different show with an aesthetic and tone closer to SWAT Kats that is demonstrably set on Earth and has weird green skies and then maybe I'll agree that funky sky colors in a show with an otherwise (relatively) naturalistic aesthetic aren't evidence that it isn't supposed to take place on Earth.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
First, it may be due to Artistic License to create their own species;
I did acknowledge that other shows that were definitely set on Earth had their own fictional species of dinosaurs.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
second, to know the totality of life forms from 65 to 70 million years ago is impossible... so one can say that they are still unknown species
This is true, but a reach.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
and third... well... not that they are so scientifically accurate: what we know about dinosaurs now has left the knowledge of the '90s quite obsolete.
As someone who was a dinosaur nut growing up, I can tell you that the dinosaurs in The Pastmaster Always Rings Twice are inaccurate even for 1993. In fact, in many ways they're kind of a regression in terms of dinosaur portrayal, since they have more in common with 1980s portrayals of dinosaurs than with 1990s ones, being big, lumbering fatsos with dragging tails. Heck, until Jurassic Park came along and popularized scientifically accurate dinosaurs, fiction saw fit to basically ignore everything scientists said. Even back during the 80s, it was generally accepted that they were warm-blooded, a lot slimmer than generally depicted, didn't drag their tails, and didn't live in swamps, but this was generally ignored.

So, yes, there is precedent for inaccurate dinosaurs in fiction not meaning the story they're in takes place on another world, but, like the green skies, their portrayal can be added to the column of evidence that the kat world isn't Earth. Like the sky color(s), on its own, it isn't evidence of anything, but when combined with the fact kats and not humans inhabit the planet, it is nevertheless suggestive.

Again, these things are nothing conclusive, but they add up.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
Curious that you didn't mention the oil-eating worm.
Ah, yeah. I forgot about those things.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
It was never made clear where it came from,
The bottom of the sea, clearly.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
but apart from that example -and the Creeplings-,
Which, while never proven, I've always assumed to be creations of Dark Kat as opposed to naturally occurring creatures.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
most of the flora and fauna seen in the series, looks quite... terrestrial.
That's because even if their world isn't Earth, for the most part, they clearly made an effort to make it as similar to own world as possible in order for the audience to actually relate. And not every example of flora in their world is entirely like ours. I give you the Dead Forest in The Giant Bacteria. Find me trees like that on Earth. Not trees shaped like that; how they're shaped is not the issue. Their size is. They're gigantic, the size of skyscrapers, big enough that Dr. Viper lives in the hollow of the largest one like it's a studio apartment.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
Or, it is an alternate Earth, just like ours, or Strangereal-style, where felines, not primates, evolved to become the dominant species.
This seems more likely to me than it being the future of our own planet. Mostly because, for lack of anything better to call it, I had the planet referred to as "Earth" in a few lines of dialogue in my fan rewrite of The Doctors of Doom. Not because I thought their world was Earth, at least our Earth, but because I'm not sure what else they'd call their planet.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
Have you heard of the Silurian theory, or Ooparts? -Out of place artifact-
I've heard of a lot of similar theories about ancient civilizations, and none of them hold much water. It's fun for fiction, but it's pseudoscientific (or perhaps pseudohistorical would be a better description) gobbledygook IRL.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
Well, most of the objects classified in this way are considered fakes, or else, justified with explanations sometimes not very credible by scientists.
And rightly so.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
Personally, I find it absurd to think that in the nearly 600 million years that the Earth has been harboring complex life, no alien species has colonized it for some time, or else, that only humans have evolved as an intelligent species and that before us there was nothing.
That doesn't change the fact there's no evidence for it. We have no evidence for extraterrestrial life (or lack thereof). The concept of ancient aliens is a fun idea, and while someday there may be some definitive proof of such things, at present, there isn't. It amounts to "Wouldn't it be cool if...?" wishful thinking. All signs do in fact point to humans being the first intelligent sentient life to emerge after the dinosaurs went extinct, and that before the time of the dinosaurs the world was a mess of volcanic upheaval that couldn't yet support life.

Of course, I'm no scientist, so actually explaining much less fully comprehending all these things is a little beyond me, but I generally trust accredited experts. Particularly ones who will change their ideas as new evidence emerges. It's the people who won't change their minds in the face of evidence I don't trust. And it has to be credible evidence. Although you note that the scientific community has dismissed a lot of things as insufficient, the fact remains that evidence was presented and examined; they have actually looked at all the claims made over the years, so the notion that they suppress evidence that clashes with their worldview is incorrect (not that you suggested they did; merely that people who tend to believe in things like Atlantis, Lemuria, the hollow Earth, etc. often use that claim whenever their "evidence" gets rejected).

And it wasn't that there was nothing before us. Between the world's volcanic beginnings and the rise of humans, it was teeming with life. In fact I daresay there was more life, and more variety of it, back then than there is now. It was just mostly small rodents and reptiles and insects and such, as opposed to primates.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
The truth is that it would be very difficult or almost impossible to find evidence of an advanced prehistoric civilization, given the passage of time that would wear away most of the materials until they disappear.
No, there'd be something. If not evidence of buildings and technology, then fossil evidence of living things. But no fossils of any intelligent non-human beings have been discovered. And the claim that it's "very difficult or almost impossible" to find evidence of them is, in my opinion, a copout, akin to saying that "lack of evidence for something isn't evidence against it." If there's no evidence for them, what makes you think they existed? Where does the idea of them come from? Our imaginations. We want there to be more to the surrounding world than there is, and, heck, there could be/could've been, until such time as actual evidence for such things surfaces, we can't have a proper debate on the issue because it's all a matter of belief. And debating belief never got anyone anywhere. At least not anywhere good.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
Except for a great luck, the only place where it would be possible to find evidence of an ancient, prehistoric and advanced civilization would be the Moon and other planets where erosion or biological agents are almost non-existent.
Well, we've been to the moon several times and there's nothing up there. That said, I wonder if you'd like the movie Moontrap, which does deal with astronauts finding evidence of an advanced, ancient human civilization up there, along with a bunch of evil robots that cannibalize humans for spare parts.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
Ehm... Sequel to the resounding failure of Jurassic World that ended up making humanity extinct? TboneLaughCait TboneLaughCait
I don't think enough dinosaurs escaped from Lockwood Manor to properly overrun the Earth, no matter what the movie suggests.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
But if there were... Would there be evidence? Would humans have left them?
Yeah. Depending on how long ago they existed, they'd leave either ancient ruins and artifacts for them to be find, or, if they predated the dinosaurs, then there'd be fossil evidence. The thing is they'd need to dig down particularly deep to find them, since the older something is, the deeper in the strata of the planet it is. If you wanted to do a story where fossil evidence of humans is discovered, they mention in Caverns of Horror that the titular caverns are "deeper than any kat's gone before," Conklin dumping his toxic waste down there notwithstanding. While Conklin only went down there to dump the waste and apparently didn't do any exploring, perhaps you could write a story where Dr. Sinian decides to poke around down there after all the scorpions have been taken care of and finds fossilized human skeletons or something.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
The Kats would over time forget about their "precursors",
How can they forget about something they never knew about to begin with? Up until now, you've been suggesting the humans existed so long before the kats that without any archaeological or paleo-anthropological evidence there's no way they could've even known about them. Now suddenly the kats used to know but "forgot" over time. Which is it?
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
a professional euphemism for "I haven't the faintest idea what this thing is".
Well, yeah, if they don't know what something is, they usually won't presume to pretend like they know. At least the professional ones won't. This has unfortunately led to many overly imaginative people to dismiss scientists as a bunch of stuffy killjoys who won't let them have fun with their wild ideas about ancient aliens and cryptids.
EditorElohim wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:34 pm
And then there is the issue of academics, of whether they would be willing to acknowledge evidence that would crumble decades of their studies.
I think they would be. The nature of science, one of the major things about it, is that it changes when new evidence comes along. The problem is that new evidence often comes along in very small increments as opposed to huge, sweeping discoveries, so scientists have to be on their guard when a ton of evidence comes in all at once, because that usually means it's a hoax. Not always, but the odds are that if something seems like it's too good to be true, it usually is. Scientists are actually very openminded, usually; they just always have to be on their guard against scams, hoaxes and phonies, so they don't just accept even mountains of seemingly totally convincing evidence right out of the gate.
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Re: Hypothesis: humanity as extinct precursors

Post by MoDaD » Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:42 pm

About a decade ago there was a joke post I saw on reddit that someone had made - it was an image made like a timeline that had all of the Hanna-Barbera and Cartoon-Cartoon properties organized chronologically in relation to each other. It embraced the old joke theory that the The Flintstones and The Jetsons takes place at the same time in a post-apocalyptic setting in the future alongside Samurai Jack, and then really far after that, the punchline at the very end of the timeline was that SWAT Kats: The Radical Squadron occurs after everything. It was a somewhat famous image back then and I cannot find it now, so I'm wondering if someone else recalls that. It may have even been posted on the SWATKATS.us forum.

EDIT:

Found it - click to see full size.

Image

Image
While in Europe, Dr. Quest discovers Medieval text about creatures with human-like intelligence. Soon, he finds a live specimen as well as a similar, aquatic species mentioned in 17th century naval records.

Dr. Quest conducts experiments attempting to create intelligent animals by splicing Smurf and Snork DNA with normal animals.

Unfortunately, numerous animal test subjects escape, contaminating the local wildlife.

The animals grew more intelligent, some even help humans and become publicly accepted.

Government attempts to create robot replacements, genetically altered animals, and even superheroes were met with mediocre results at best, and creating more problems at worst.

When extinct animals are discovered in South America, the government rushes a project to create their own intelligent creatures. However, the project failed, only creating fairly docile creatures.

As the crisis worsens, the elite of humanity abandon the Earth’s surface. Some go deep underwater, some journey out into space, others live in their technological ivory towers, blissfully ignorant of the chaos below.

On the Earth’s surface, humans and intelligent animals both regress back to a prehistoric life. The people have managed to cobble together a strange semblance of their previous culture, yet still remain backwards.

As the humans declined, the intelligent animals adapted and built their own civilizations modelled after the former human culture.
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Re: Hypothesis: humanity as extinct precursors

Post by marklungo » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:12 am

And then some of the humans living underwater went mad from the isolation... which explains Sealab 2021. crazymadkat

Seriously, I doubt Benton Quest would go Dr. Moreau and try to create intelligent animals. That sounds more like something that Chu Sing Ling* would do.

*The mad scientist from the Jonny Quest episode "Terror Island". He specialized in creating giant animals.
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Re: Hypothesis: humanity as extinct precursors

Post by EditorElohim » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:05 pm

Really? Hanna-Barbera has its own version of the "Pixar Theory"?

My reaction to this is...
Spoiler:
Image
I'm sorry, I'm sorry... but it's... RazLaugh RazLaugh RazLaugh RazLaugh RazLaugh RazLaugh
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Re: Hypothesis: humanity as extinct precursors

Post by Kooshmeister » Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:23 pm

Well, it isn't intended to be taken seriously, from what I can tell.
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Re: Hypothesis: humanity as extinct precursors

Post by Rusakov » Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:07 pm

EditorElohim wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:05 pm
Really? Hanna-Barbera has its own version of the "Pixar Theory"?

...
Well coming up with the idea at all did require taking a supplement consisting of 99% kelp and 1% fugu tetrodotoxin. So you have every reason to be skeptical. FeralIcon
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