How closely should a rebooted Swat Kats follow the original story?

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Re: How closely should a rebooted Swat Kats follow the original story?

Post by Ocelot » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:54 am

Leon Mane wrote: Flesh out the characters, give them broad, real personalities, give Manx a rival for re-election, give Callie some credit for being the one to really run the city, throw Feral a bone more often by letting him finish a bad guy (like the time he punched Viper into the shield .
This I agree with 100%. The character that needs to be fleshed out more I think is Feral. Really give him a real motivation for hating the Swat Kats instead of just them stealing his glory and being petty.

If i were to write it I would emphasize Feral hating the reckless behavior of fhe Swat Kats more and giving a reason for why that is. Say when he was younger he lost someone close to him because of a fellow Enforcers reckless action on the field

Also more development for the characters would work.

People have talk about adding a Oracle type of Character with the Swat Kats.

I was thinking of adding new members to the Enforcers. We all saw the success of Felina. Adding more would help us relate with the Enforcers more. Say a rookie character and maybe veteran character and add more women also.
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Re: How closely should a rebooted Swat Kats follow the original story?

Post by Kooshmeister » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:59 pm

Ocelot wrote:Really give him a real motivation for hating the Swat Kats instead of just them stealing his glory and being petty.
Does Feral need a reason to dislike reckless, destructive behavior? I don't think he needs a complicated backstory to explain what he hates about the SWAT Kats. He's a policeman.
Ocelot wrote:I was thinking of adding new members to the Enforcers. We all saw the success of Felina. Adding more would help us relate with the Enforcers more. Say a rookie character and maybe veteran character and add more women also.
We were gonna get a rookie character, Gray Taylor, in The Doctors of Doom. But not only was that episode never finished, Gray also gets turned into a Ci-Kat-A drone and unceremoniously mutated into a giant grub worm and killed (and I thought Glenn offing dear old Dr. Zyme was mean-spirited!). Perhaps they can reuse him and not kill him off this time.

Also, with revelation about the main Enforcer Sergeant's name (Talon), I'd like to see him explored some, too. SergeantRoger

The script and storyboards for Destructive Nature describes him as one of Feral's "top Enforcers," so it'd be interesting to see more of him. He could probably be the more grizzled veteran type (a role he - or another sergeant like him - seemed to fill in Night of the Dark Kat, where he does interact with a rookie). Overall, I think he's a character who's been unjustly ignored for a long time. The fact Falk bothered giving him a name and position as a "top Enforcer" suggests they did originally plan to making him more than just a recurring extra.

Like, I always envisioned him as loyal not just to the Enforcers, but to the Ferals in particular. I kind of would like to know what specifically makes him one of the top Enforcers after Feral and Felina, besides just being a gruff, obedient "Sergeant Rock" stereotype. I do wish he'd been the sergeant who complains to Steel in Enter the Madkat, as it'd show his dislike for Feral's lieutenant commander. In short: more of the inner workings and lives of the individual Enforcers as well as the inner workings of the organization.

And speaking of Steel, he could use at least a little character development, too, to make him less of a one-note, cowardly slimeball. SteeleSweatDropIcon
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Re: How closely should a rebooted Swat Kats follow the original story?

Post by Ocelot » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:03 am

Kooshmeister wrote:
Does Feral need a reason to dislike reckless, destructive behavior? I don't think he needs a complicated backstory to explain what he hates about the SWAT Kats. He's a policeman.
Well Batman commits some reckless behavior at times but he is still given the benefit of the doubt by Gordon. And remember its not just the Swat Kats causing the destruction. The villains play a pretty big part in it also. Although I see Ferals side he does go overboard by placing all the blame on the Swat Kats for the destruction. That part right there needs to be explained. And I still want Feral explored. That I feel is a good entry point to explore him as a character.
Kooshmeister wrote: We were gonna get a rookie character, Gray Taylor, in The Doctors of Doom. But not only was that episode never finished, Gray also gets turned into a Ci-Kat-A drone and unceremoniously mutated into a giant grub worm and killed (and I thought Glenn offing dear old Dr. Zyme was mean-spirited!). Perhaps they can reuse him and not kill him off this time.
Eh I’m whatever on Zyme. He never really stood out to me. It doesn’t really matter to me if they bring him back or not. Yes a character like Gray would suffice.
Kooshmeister wrote: Also, with revelation about the main Enforcer Sergeant's name (Talon), I'd like to see him explored some, too. SergeantRoger

The script and storyboards for Destructive Nature describes him as one of Feral's "top Enforcers," so it'd be interesting to see more of him. He could probably be the more grizzled veteran type (a role he - or another sergeant like him - seemed to fill in Night of the Dark Kat, where he does interact with a rookie). Overall, I think he's a character who's been unjustly ignored for a long time. The fact Falk bothered giving him a name and position as a "top Enforcer" suggests they did originally plan to making him more than just a recurring extra.

Like, I always envisioned him as loyal not just to the Enforcers, but to the Ferals in particular. I kind of would like to know what specifically makes him one of the top Enforcers after Feral and Felina, besides just being a gruff, obedient "Sergeant Rock" stereotype. I do wish he'd been the sergeant who complains to Steel in Enter the Madkat, as it'd show his dislike for Feral's lieutenant commander. In short: more of the inner workings and lives of the individual Enforcers as well as the inner workings of the organization.
I was thinking more of someone on the field. Like Lenny Brisco on Law and Order. Not just Ferals right hand man.
Kooshmeister wrote: And speaking of Steel, he could use at least a little character development, too, to make him less of a one-note, cowardly slimeball. SteeleSweatDropIcon
Eh the only way Steel should get any development is if they make him a legit villain. We haven’t had any Dirty Cop character on the Enforcers. He would be perfect for it. Making him a positive character would never work for me. Not only because of his actions in the series but the design of the character itself. His design just screams prick.

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Re: How closely should a rebooted Swat Kats follow the original story?

Post by Kooshmeister » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:36 am

Ocelot wrote:Eh I’m whatever on Zyme. He never really stood out to me. It doesn’t really matter to me if they bring him back or not. Yes a character like Gray would suffice.
Most people are, and I believe that's a mistake. He would make an interesting foil to Viper in one of two ways - either he remains idealistic and provides a counterpoint to Viper's sadism, or he becomes embittered and vengeful, bent on killing Viper and ridding the world of a fiend he blames himself for, similar to Hackle, except taken up to eleven, considering Viper is far crueler and evil than the Metallikats on their worst day.

So I think Zyme has a lot of potential, and it forever puzzles me why people dismiss him.

Ironically, we wouldn't even be having this conversation if Glenn Leopold had written him into The Origin of Dr. Viper as such a kindhearted character. Without that episode, Zyme would just be a redshirt scientist with a terrible name pun, and I probably wouldn't care about him. It's the development he gets in Origin that makes me wish he hadn't died.
Ocelot wrote:I was thinking more of someone on the field. Like Lenny Brisco on Law and Order. Not just Ferals right hand man.
And Talon couldn't handle this role because?
Ocelotr wrote:Eh the only way Steel should get any development is if they make him a legit villain.
I doubt the guy has the guts to be truly evil, and not because he has a good bone in his body. Remember, he couldn't even own the one truly despicable thing he did, abandoning Feral to get killed, because I believe that as greedy as he is, his sense of self-preservation will always outweigh his ambition. The way I see it, he only did what he did in The Wrath of Dark Kat because chance basically dropped the opportunity into his lap, and required no direct action from him beyond hanging up the phone. I doubt he has the gumption to directly risk incriminating himself, to say nothing of the fact he came off as squeamish, so I doubt he relishes the idea of killing Feral himself.

Although, to be fair, that's what hired goons are for... SteeleSweatDropIcon

And him becoming an outright villain, IMO, isn't really character development; it's just his existing characterization writ large.

At any rate, I'd definitely like an explanation for how such an obviously shifty buttkisser wound up as lieutenant commander, especially considering he has zero combat experience. Why would Feral have him? It's obvious he never liked Steel even before he doublecrossed him, and Feral doesn't strike me as the type to suffer sycophants (he likely considers them the equally useless, more annoying polar opposites of insubordinates like Chance), so Steel didn't get where he was by complimenting his way into Feral's good graces. He had to have done something to make Feral think he was not only worthy of becoming the lieutenant commander... but worth keeping around even after the events of The Wrath of Dark Kat, even if only in a diminished capacity (I like to think he reassigned him to the robbery investigation department, considering what he tells Katzmer in Enter the Madkat).
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Re: How closely should a rebooted Swat Kats follow the original story?

Post by Ocelot » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:45 pm

Kooshmeister wrote:
Most people are, and I believe that's a mistake. He would make an interesting foil to Viper in one of two ways - either he remains idealistic and provides a counterpoint to Viper's sadism, or he becomes embittered and vengeful, bent on killing Viper and ridding the world of a fiend he blames himself for, similar to Hackle, except taken up to eleven, considering Viper is far crueler and evil than the Metallikats on their worst day.

So I think Zyme has a lot of potential, and it forever puzzles me why people dismiss him.

Ironically, we wouldn't even be having this conversation if Glenn Leopold had written him into The Origin of Dr. Viper as such a kindhearted character. Without that episode, Zyme would just be a redshirt scientist with a terrible name pun, and I probably wouldn't care about him. It's the development he gets in Origin that makes me wish he hadn't died.
Eh I just don’t see the potential you are seeing. To me he just comes of as a niave do gooder that will get taking advantage by anyone. Nothing in his scenes stand out. If it weren’t for the fact that he is associated with Viper I wouldn’t remember him. They could have put any character in the role and no one would notice. I feel the only reason he was in the Origin of Dr Viper is because Leopold watched The Giant Bacteria and saw that they killed him off and came up with the idea of using him in Vipers origin. Plus it help the animators that they didn’t have to create a new character.

I agree with everybody. He served his purpose lets move on.

Kooshmeister wrote: And Talon couldn't handle this role because?
I did put “on the field” and “not just Ferals right hand man” in my comment.

The Enforcers usually are from Ferals point of view. The rest are redshirt characters. It would be nice if we got the point of view of the Enforcers who are front and center of every battle. The rookie character and the veteran can provide that.



Kooshmeister wrote: I doubt the guy has the guts to be truly evil, and not because he has a good bone in his body. Remember, he couldn't even own the one truly despicable thing he did, abandoning Feral to get killed, because I believe that as greedy as he is, his sense of self-preservation will always outweigh his ambition. The way I see it, he only did what he did in The Wrath of Dark Kat because chance basically dropped the opportunity into his lap, and required no direct action from him beyond hanging up the phone. I doubt he has the gumption to directly risk incriminating himself, to say nothing of the fact he came off as squeamish, so I doubt he relishes the idea of killing Feral himself.

Although, to be fair, that's what hired goons are for...
I have to disagree. I don’t think you need guts to be truly evil in real life or fiction. Just the willingness to commit heinous acts. Look at the character of Jerry Lundergard in Fargo. Guy was a weakling and a complete coward. That didn’t stop him from having his wife kidnapped just to blackmail his father in law. I don’t want to spoil it for anyone who hasn’t watched the film but most of the awful events in that movie happen because of him.

Thats the type of evil character I think Steele can be similar too. Just a total slimeball who can manipulate the system but is a total weakling when it comes to doing the dirty work.

Who said he will try to kill Feral? He is already close to Feral. He could easily try to frame Feral or ruin his reputation. Being part of the Enforcers he has the resources to do it.
Kooshmeister wrote: And him becoming an outright villain, IMO, isn't really character development; it's just his existing characterization writ large.
Development or not thats the only potential his character can go inmy opinion.
Kooshmeister wrote:
At any rate, I'd definitely like an explanation for how such an obviously shifty buttkisser wound up as lieutenant commander, especially considering he has zero combat experience. Why would Feral have him? It's obvious he never liked Steel even before he doublecrossed him, and Feral doesn't strike me as the type to suffer sycophants (he likely considers them the equally useless, more annoying polar opposites of insubordinates like Chance), so Steel didn't get where he was by complimenting his way into Feral's good graces. He had to have done something to make Feral think he was not only worthy of becoming the lieutenant commander... but worth keeping around even after the events of The Wrath of Dark Kat, even if only in a diminished capacity (I like to think he reassigned him to the robbery investigation department, considering what he tells Katzmer in Enter the Madkat).
I don’t think its that difficult to know why Steele would have a position with the Enforcers. One could easily surmise that he is there because he has powerful connections in Megakatcity. Say he has a friend or family that is rich or politically involved in Megakatcity. Plenty of people in real life like that. Going back to my favorite example the POTUS Donald Trump. You really think he would be where he is at if his Daddy wasn’t a rich Multimillionaire? I don’t think so. Looking at Steeles demeanor he is clearly someone born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Feral may run the Enforcers but he still has people he answers too and could easily be pressured into hiring someone like Steel and promoting him.

Like you said before Steele is complete coward. So I don’t see how we can believe he could have done anything to convice Feral to hire him and Promote him. Unless Feral was forced too.
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Re: How closely should a rebooted Swat Kats follow the original story?

Post by Kooshmeister » Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:46 am

Double post. TboneSwearCait
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Re: How closely should a rebooted Swat Kats follow the original story?

Post by Kooshmeister » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:05 am

Ocelot wrote:Well Batman commits some reckless behavior at times but he is still given the benefit of the doubt by Gordon.
Yeah, but Batman doesn't insult Gordon on a daily basis.
Ocelot wrote:He served his purpose lets move on.
Just because you personally can't think of anything interesting to do with a character doesn't mean nobody else can. After all, I just did. I'm not saying my ideas are good, just that I'm at least putting actual effort into think of ways Zyme could be further used, which you are rather stubbornly resistant to. RazConfused
Ocelot wrote:I did put “on the field” and “not just Ferals right hand man” in my comment.
I repeat the question. There's nothing saying Talon can't do fieldwork in addition to being Feral's go-to NCO, especially considering Felina pretty much replaced him in season two. It'd give him something to do, whereas creating a new character would only push Talon further to the sidelines than he already was.
Ocelot wrote:It would be nice if we got the point of view of the Enforcers who are front and center of every battle. The rookie character and the veteran can provide that.
And the already-created Gray Taylor can fill the former role, and Talon the latter, or, heck, Felina can. She does some detective-y stuff sometimes and she and Gray can become a kind of duo investigating crimes and such. For the time being, we don't need any new Enforcer characters replacing preexisting ones. We need new characters who won't tread on the toes of preexisting characters.
Ocelot wrote:Who said he will try to kill Feral? He is already close to Feral. He could easily try to frame Feral or ruin his reputation. Being part of the Enforcers he has the resources to do it.
I kinda thought wanting Feral out of the way went without saying, and killing him/getting him killed seems the most expeditious way of doing it, but I can't see Steel trying it again for the reasons stated: his sense of self-preservation outweighs his ambition.
Ocelot wrote:Development or not thats the only potential his character can go inmy opinion.
So you just Flanderize his existing traits...?
Ocelot wrote:Like you said before Steele is complete coward.
I didn't see him as being a coward, exactly, just squeamish.
Ocelot wrote:So I don’t see how we can believe he could have done anything to convice Feral to hire him and Promote him. Unless Feral was forced too.
Even cowards can be capable of getting things done. He had to have done something to persuade Feral to promote him (hiring is a different matter; the Enforcers have an academy anyone can join and graduate from, as per The Doctors of Doom, which is tentatively canon). As for Feral being forced to take Steel, I know it's a semi-popular fan theory that Steel comes from a wealthy family who could make trouble if he were fired, but there's no evidence of this. Only Manx can tell Feral what to do. Manx having the authority to tell Feral what to do is demonstrated in the show. Steel having a wealthy family isn't. Nobody else has been shown ever giving Feral an order. The closest is when he decides to heed Dr. Sinian's advice, but neither she nor Callie made him do diddly. Ergo, with no existing evidence of Steel having wealthy benefactors, it stands to reason Feral keeps him on of his own free will, and I'd like to know why.

So while Steel may seem like he comes from a rich family, there's just as much evidence for him living in a ratty apartment than there is for the Steels being big movers and shakes in Megakat City.

Also, it's "Steel." We know now his name has only two Es, just like he himself said.

And re: Steel's character design screaming "prick." Look at Feral. His hard features and perpetual scowl are visual shorthand for "big, loud jerk" in animation, and yet over the course of the show, he, however slightly, was able to overcome this. Why not Steel? Why play the "he is what he looks like he is and that's all he can ever be" card with him? Wouldn't it be more interesting if he revealed some hidden depths over the course of the series? Never completely becoming not-a-jerk, though, but enough to tell us why he's a useful asset to the Enforcers in spite of his unpleasant personality.
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Re: How closely should a rebooted Swat Kats follow the original story?

Post by Kooshmeister » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:16 am

Um... somehow I double posted. RazorPainCait
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Re: How closely should a rebooted Swat Kats follow the original story?

Post by Ocelot » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:41 pm

Kooshmeister wrote:
Just because you personally can't think of anything interesting to do with a character doesn't mean nobody else can. After all, I just did. I'm not saying my ideas are good, just that I'm at least putting actual effort into think of ways Zyme could be further used, which you are rather stubbornly resistant to. RazConfused
Ah its my opinion buddy. Its not that I’m not putting in the effort. Its that I don’t find him interesting at all. I’m sorry I don’t share your fascination with Zyme. You don’t have to get defensive about it. Ever heard of agree to disagree?


Kooshmeister wrote:I repeat the question. There's nothing saying Talon can't do fieldwork in addition to being Feral's go-to NCO, especially considering Felina pretty much replaced him in season two. It'd give him something to do, whereas creating a new character would only push Talon further to the sidelines than he already was.
The fact that he is Feral second in command guarantees he doesn’t do field work. He’s basically the VP. If something happens to Feral its his responsibility to Lead the Enforcers. Similar to Steele in the early seasons.

And who said he should be pushed to the sidelines? They could easily develop his character more. He could fill in for Feral if Feral is incapacitated or they can develop his relationship with Feral even more.

Kooshmeister wrote: And the already-created Gray Taylor can fill the former role, and Talon the latter, or, heck, Felina can. She does some detective-y stuff sometimes and she and Gray can become a kind of duo investigating crimes and such. For the time being, we don't need any new Enforcer characters replacing preexisting ones. We need new characters who won't tread on the toes of preexisting characters.
Ah Felina is perfect just the way she is. Other than more time spent with her. She doesn’t need anything else bringing her down. Her working alone fits her character. Putting her with a rookie makes her a babysitter no thank you.

Putting a older grizzled veteran with a rookie Grey. Is a far more interesting dynamic. Similar to Bullock and Gordan on Gotham.

Again who said we are treading the toes of any characters. We aren’t replacing anybody? Just adding some. Plenty of time for the characters. Avatar the last Air bender had a bunch of characters and still found time for each of them.

You want to give more time to characters that were killed off or deleted after a few episodes. And they aren’t even popular. Yet adding a few new characters to strengthen the show is taking up space? Come on a little fairness here.
Kooshmeister wrote: I kinda thought wanting Feral out of the way went without saying, and killing him/getting him killed seems the most expeditious way of doing it, but I can't see Steel trying it again for the reasons stated: his sense of self-preservation outweighs his ambition.
Like I said I disagree. I think he’s very capable of doing something dastardly. Nothing in the series showed he can’t. Other than being scared being on a jet. And people are capable of anything as history shows.
Kooshmeister wrote: So you just Flanderize his existing traits...?
If that whats its called Yes.
Kooshmeister wrote: I didn't see him as being a coward, exactly, just squeamish.
well so would anyone here if we were forced to ride a jet without training.

Kooshmeister wrote: Even cowards can be capable of getting things done.
Yes even be evil. Glad we agree. :lol:
Kooshmeister wrote: He had to have done something to persuade Feral to promote him (hiring is a different matter; the Enforcers have an academy anyone can join and graduate from, as per The Doctors of Doom, which is tentatively canon). As for Feral being forced to take Steel, I know it's a semi-popular fan theory that Steel comes from a wealthy family who could make trouble if he were fired, but there's no evidence of this. Only Manx can tell Feral what to do. Manx having the authority to tell Feral what to do is demonstrated in the show. Steel having a wealthy family isn't. Nobody else has been shown ever giving Feral an order. The closest is when he decides to heed Dr. Sinian's advice, but neither she nor Callie made him do diddly. Ergo, with no existing evidence of Steel having wealthy benefactors, it stands to reason Feral keeps him on of his own free will, and I'd like to know why.
well there is no evidence of him doing anything with Feral that would have got him promoted. In most of their scenes together Feral just seems annoyed to be around him. It also makes Feral kind of an idiot for hiring and promoting someone that is lazy, power hungry, and can’t even ride in a jet without passing out. It just makes much more sense that Feral was forced to do it. Otherwise it comes of more like the idiot plot.

I also disagree with you on Manx. Manx is a Mayor but he also has benefactors. All politicians need money from their supporters. Thats why you see Celebrities supporting Hilary Clinton, why you had NFL owners and rich Billionaires supporting Donald Trump. Campaigns cost money. So we can theorize Manx has them too. So we can jump to the conclusion that Steele has a rich family who supported Mayor Manx in his elections. And in turn ask Manx a favor to get their friend or son a high ranking job with the Enforcers.
Kooshmeister wrote:And re: Steel's character design screaming "prick." Look at Feral. His hard features and perpetual scowl are visual shorthand for "big, loud jerk" in animation, and yet over the course of the show, he, however slightly, was able to overcome this. Why not Steel? Why play the "he is what he looks like he is and that's all he can ever be" card with him? Wouldn't it be more interesting if he revealed some hidden depths over the course of the series? Never completely becoming not-a-jerk, though, but enough to tell us why he's a useful asset to the Enforcers in spite of his unpleasant personality.
[/quote] I never saw Feral as loud jerk. Even by his design. He looks like a strict hardcase commander similar to Army Generals. He also looked in impressive shape for a cat his age.
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Re: How closely should a rebooted Swat Kats follow the original story?

Post by NightSlayer2 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:19 pm

There are some factors I look forward to seeing into the new show.

1) They said there would be an Oracle type person to help with SWAT Kats with technology and fieldwork. That would be so cool. That would be like what Felicity Smoak does in Arrow. My friend on the Batman fanon website, Bat24, made up a Felicity Smoak like character named Kristina once. I bet this Felicity Smoak like character might have a romance going on with Jake.

2) I'd like to see more about Feral and the Enforcers. I wish to see Feral's perspective of what happened the day he fired Chance and Jake from the Enforcers. Perhaps Feral has a vendetta against Dark Kat. I also would like to see some corrupt enforcers and maybe Steele. In my fanfic world, there is corruption in the Enforcers. I also would like to see Feral's family and why he hates vigilantes so much. Perhaps the recklessness of a vigilante cost Feral the life of someone he cared about the most. I also like to see why Callie dislikes him so much. In my fanfic world, Callie was Feral's foster daughter and they had a good relationship. However, Callie soon started to dislike Feral when Feral kept her mother being alive a secret from her.

3) An episode on Manx running against someone for mayor who is against the Manx Administration and wants the SWAT Kats to be outlawed. I also like to see how Callie got the communicator from the SWAT Kats and how she became the deputy mayor.

4) I like to see other law enforcement agencies other than the Enforcers and for there to be a world outside of MegaKat City. I like to see agencies appear such as the FBI, the CIA, or the NSA or something like that. I like to see if there are other cities that exist as well.

5) I like to see the SWAT Kats tackle new villains and deal with mobsters.

6) I like to see everyone's family like Chance's parents, flashbacks to Chance's time in that old neighborhood, and Jake's family. ANd other people's families like from Manx, Callie, and Feral.

7) Feral and the SWAT Kats become allies like Captain Lance and Team Arrow. Feral could do this because of the corruption of the Enforcers (if they decide to make it that way) or if there is something that the law cannot handle. I'd also like to see flashbacks to Feral starting out as a young enforcer and with an older veteran similar to Gordon and Bullock from Gotham.

8) Some other vigilantes to appear.
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